samedi 11 janvier 2020

Réponse à des calomnies


Cet article fait suite à une demande de clarification de lecteurs. Il fait le point sur une campagne de harcèlement qui a commencé il y a plus de 2 ans.


Historique

L’auteur de ce harcèlement est un individu qui nous avait d’abord contacté pour demander des conseils sur sa voie spirituelle, et que nous avions accepté d’aider. Celui-ci avait lui-même insisté pour que les informations échangées restent confidentielles. Au cours de l’échange, il a voulu nous persuader de diverses théories, qui ne nous ont pas convaincu, et l’échange s’était arrêté là.

Peu après, l’individu en question a commencé son harcèlement par d’incessantes apostrophes anonymes, où dès le début il menaçait de livrer nos conversations privées au public. Nous avons mis quelques temps à reconnaître cette personne, qui ne nous avait pas particulièrement marqué, et qui prenait un soin particulier à se camoufler derrière des histoires inventées à partir de détails dérisoires qu’elle pouvait trouver çà et là sur internet. On peut lire quelques-uns de ses messages sur les pages suivantes :

Nous n’avons pas publié la plupart de ses messages qui sont juste allés remplir notre dossier spams. De ces monologues chaotiques, voici juste un extrait significatif, dans lequel elle tente de justifier sa vilenie en mélangeant la réalisation descendante et la chute dans le bourbier :

des problèmes tels que le refus de descendre, tout en se plaignant sans cesse de la façon dont le monde est déchu et diabolique! C’est ce «refus de descendre "comme l'appellent les Guenonians qui ont grandement conduit à la destruction de tant de personnes qui avaient le pouvoir d'arrêter cette destruction. Des templiers aux chevaliers, aux peuples indien et tibet, aux africains, cette faible attitude" sacerdotale "est une autre maladie qui doit être refusée avec véhémence. "Refuser de descendre", c'est finalement perdre une partie de votre être, comment pouvez-vous alors avoir réalisé l'Être suprême? C'est le péché d'un "prêtre / brahmane". Il faut aller au-delà de telles choses.
5 mars 2019, 13:47


Agitation récente

Dernièrement, ce harcèlement a pris la forme de pseudo-révélations par personne interposée, publiées dans le seul et unique but de faire du mal. Calomnies grotesques, comprenant des éléments privés obtenus dans l’échange mentionné ci-dessus, éléments plus ou moins déformés, associés à d’autres inventés, et à de soi-disant idées secrètes compromettantes.

Tout cela affirmé sans apporter la moindre preuve. Mais cela n’empêche pas les rumeurs de commencer à courir et à animer les fantômes de ces mystérieuses idées compromettantes, qui seraient opposées à l’œuvre de Guénon, et que nous échafauderions en privé. « Calomniez, calomniez, il en restera toujours quelque chose ».

Pour ce qui est du domaine de la vie privée, cela ne regarde simplement pas le public. Rappelons ce que disait Guénon du respect de l’anonymat :

Les Nouvelles littéraires (numéro du 27 mai) ont publié une interview au cours de laquelle M. Elian J. Finbert a jugé bon de se livrer sur notre compte à des racontars aussi fantaisistes que déplaisants. Nous avons déjà dit bien souvent ce que nous pensons de ces histoires « personnelles » : cela n’a pas le moindre intérêt en soi, et, au regard de la doctrine, les individualités ne comptent pas et ne doivent jamais paraître ; en outre de cette question de principe, nous estimons que quiconque n’est pas un malfaiteur a le droit le plus absolu à ce que le secret de son existence privée soit respecté et à ce que rien de ce qui s’y rapporte ne soit étalé devant le public sans son consentement.
René Guénon, Voile d’Isis, comptes rendus de revues, octobre 1933.

Concernant les idées, nous ne voyons pas d’inconvénient à reproduire directement les emails que nous avons envoyés à l’époque, et que le troll revendique avoir pris comme source. Ils ne contiennent rien de honteux, c’est simplement une conversation privée. Le lecteur inquiet, intéressé et compréhensif excusera leur forme qui n’était pas destinée à une communication publique, et pourra juger par lui-même si ces attaques sont fondées ou non. L’accusation générale étant celle d’être secrètement en désaccord avec l’œuvre de Guénon.


Les rumeurs

Voici d’abord les accusations que le troll a fait publier :

L'étrange contradiction entre les croyances propres de Tagada et celles de Guenon. Tagada n'est pas le fidèle "guenonien" qu'il se présente, car Tagada réfute étrangement de nombreux points. Ceci est important car il se montre frauduleux. En public, il est violemment "guenonien", citant de nombreux extraits des livres de René Guenon dans lesquels il estime que M. Guenon a été mal compris ou est attaqué.

Il se présente donc publiquement comme un "chevalier guenonien", alors qu'en privé, il a mal compris de nombreux points et dénonce en fait la position de son défunt maître sur plusieurs fronts!

- Tagada nie principalement ce que M. Guenon a écrit concernant la doctrine des cycles. Cela est dû à certains enseignements eschatologiques dont il semble avoir peur. Vous devez être au courant de ce que M. Guenon a écrit dans le livre "Le Royaume de la quantité et des signes des temps" et le comparer aux déclarations de Tagada pour que ce déni surprenant vienne de celui qui se prétend grand guenonien.

- Tagada nie ou comprend mal l’aspect qualitatif du temps, du moins tel que présenté par M. Guenon. Il ne croit pas que le taux de temps change en fonction des événements qui se déroulent dans le temps. Il estime qu’il n’y a absolument aucune différence entre l’époque où M. Guenon était en vie et notre époque aujourd’hui, à l’approche de 2020.

- Tagada nie l’avènement du Mahdi ou de toute autre figure eschatologique. Cela contredit clairement l’opinion de M. Guenon selon laquelle le Mahdi doit être un homme musulman, qui viendra rassembler les gens avant la fin du cycle.

- Tagada nie la contre-initiation et ne croit pas qu’en fin de compte, elles se manifesteront de manière visible dans le but de mettre en place un empire mondial inversé.

- Tagada nie le dixième avatara ainsi que toute restauration visible de la tradition primordiale qui affectera toute l’humanité.

- Tagada pense que M. Guenon avait tort en ce qui concerne toutes ces choses. Il pense qu’au contraire, les ressources de la terre seront épuisées par les êtres humains et que finalement, tout sera dépensé, tous les arbres, les eaux, la nourriture, les animaux, etc.

- Après cela, Tagada pense que le Satya Yuga à suivre ce Kali Yuga se produira de manière invisible. Les êtres humains en vie à ce moment-là ne sauront pas que le cycle a changé et les choses redeviendront comme par magie.

Ce ne sont là que quelques-uns des points de vue étranges de M. Tagada. Je dis étrange car ils contredisent tous les enseignements de son maître décédé, M. Guenon. La raison de l’intransigeance de Tagada réside principalement dans sa peur. Il nie toutes ces choses et plus encore parce que s’il les accepte, il croit alors qu’il devra accepter d’autres choses qu’il n’aime pas. Ce qu’il craint, c’est ce que d’autres auteurs, tels que M. Gilis, ont évoqué.

Ainsi, Tagada n’adhère pas pleinement aux enseignements de M. Guenon, de peur de le conduire à embrasser les enseignements d’autres personnes, tels que M. Gilis. Dans le même temps, Tagada affirme violemment que tout ce qui l’intéresse, c’est l’intégralité des enseignements de M. Guenon. Il est clair qu’il s’agit d’un homme confus puisqu’il occupe simultanément deux positions contradictoires. Voilà donc la mentalité de Tagada: Un homme infecté par un cerveau cassé ! Il ne se soucie aucunement de l’ésotérisme, il ne défend pas non plus vraiment les travaux de son professeur, René Guenon. Tout ce qu’il fait, c’est créer une plate-forme où les points de vue qu’il partage sont présentés par M. Guenon. Si tel n’était pas le cas, pourquoi ces étranges contradictions? Ainsi, l’ensemble de son blog n’est en réalité qu’un "espace de sécurité" pour un homme détournant les livres d’autrui dans le but de protéger et de présenter sa propre vision du monde. C’est le comble de l’hypocrisie.


La réalité

Et voici les emails que nous lui avions envoyés, dans l’échange qui a suivi sa sollicitation. Seuls les éléments d’ordre privé en ont été retirés :

26 sept. 2017 22:31

I don’t understand what you are expecting from Gilis concerning Tantra ? What is his participation to this tradition ? To be frank, I have not a great esteem for Gilis, but this point is independent from his value.

Second point, I don’t trust him about Islam either, and I don’t trust his filiation as a sheikh (beginning with Schuon, self-claimed sheikh).

mainly Gilis wants to convert the whole West to Islam, which is a very narrow minded point of view, it could belong to an exclusive exoterist, but at least an exoterist doesn’t have so much weird theories, and doesn’t claim to be an authority in esoterism. Always confusing the forms, and the truth behind those forms.

Concerning the book of Sri Goswami, I don’t know it. Yes I would be interested by it, if it doesn’t take too much time for you, thank you. About Gilis books I think I have them somewhere in paper version.

There is something I don’t understand, if you recognize what Guénon says about initiation, why do you think it is no more valuable ? Don’t you think we were already in the end of time at his time ? (for example he knew phones, cars and atomic bombs) Moreover Guénon was probably a fard, someone who has a kind of intrinsic reattachment beyond the forms, and he still says that formal reattachment is necessary, that what makes his advice even more valuable.

Concerning Laya yoga you would be interested in Serpent Power from Avalon. Maybe you already read it, there are many versions of this book on internet, for example here :
https://archive.org/details/woodroffe_the_serpent_power


29 sept. 2017 01:13

I respect your opinion about Valsan and Gilis, I don’t try to change it especially. I can just tell you why I think like this.

I think that silsilah or parampara has its importance, for control, because I don’t give my blind trust to anyone. And moreover, I don’t see any good things having came out from the Schuon branch, rather sectarian people, thinking they are the best in the world, and who caused a lot of problems to Guénon, to his person first (so far that I consider that they killed him, by totally exhausting him and making him desperate by betraying him), and to his work, by giving an horrible image of "Guénon’s disciples", whereas Guénon told he had no disciple, and by distording the doctrines he exposed.

One example is the association that Gilis does between the black race and water. Whereas Guénon, on the contrary, associates it with fire. In a letter to Gaston Georgel (29 december 1937), Guénon gives the following correspondances :

North - winter - childhoud - phlegmatic - white race - water
East - spring - youth - melancholic - yellow race - air
South - summer - maturity - sanguine - black race - fire
West - automn - old age - choleric - red race - earth

So very fast, there are a lot of contradictions in Gilis and Valsan, compared to Guénon’s work. And I choose Guénon. That’s my position. Guénon never told that Islam was the only valuable form, or made the confusion between a particular form and the unique truth which is clothed by this form or another, and Islam is a form of our present time, which means this form will disappear with the others when our time will be finished, giving place to something else.

Good luck in your research. Personnaly I still considere Guénon’s explainations valuable, because I think his work especially awakes peoples who have afrad tendencies, the direct marial way that you are mentionning, which is told in an Abdul Hadi text, which is by the way commented by Guénon, who is a lot less enthousiastic about this than Abdul Hadi, and who’s words deserve interest, as Guénon was from the afrad. So I think that Guénon’s work touches people who have this sensibility (but not necessarily being accomplished afrad, since this is a very elevated spiritual state, rather only an inclination). And I think he tells them "ok you have discovered that you have a special relation with the spiritual domain, but you must take reattachment, because the way is hard and it’s better to not lose oneself, especially at the beginning. Self confidence is good but with too much we get lost." Just my opinion.

Concerning Avalon’s book, as you wish, but Guénon himself speaks very goodly about it (in his article Kundalini yoga).

I agree theorically with you concerning realisation, but I don’t think this point of view is efficient in the real world. In theory, realisation is possible even without the least exterior mean, spontaneously. So why doing any effort, it can come by itself, and it will, by waiting an indefinite time. But for us it means that, this way, it is out of reach.

I don’t know about black people in India. I was just told that there are no restriction of any group of people for being admitted in Tantrism, whatever, races, castes, etc.

Thank you for Sri Goswami’s book, don’t worry I will not transmit it to anyone. I have difficulty to find available time those days, but I’ll have a look in it.

Maybe I forgot some parts of your message, don’t hesitate to recall me if it is the case.


30 sept. 2017 03:58

What I wanted to suggest is not that we can’t find some relations with water, or that fire is more important than water, but rather that fire and water are both important, and they are interrelated. It would be too bad to be limitated by one of the terms of a duality, and this is what happens here with Gilis I have the impression.

Concerning races, I admit their existence and their specificities, but I find it less important than you do. I see stupid people in the majority of people, in every race, only good exceptions that can be found everywhere, but that’s only my experience.

Concerning Buddhism, it is the contrary, Guénon thought that Gautama was a revolted kshatriya, but he always expressed the same thing concerning the present forms, and he never said, from what I remember, that the thibetan tradition was heterodox. Simply, he rather thought that it had be corrected latly by Tantrism. Then he admitted that it wasn’t a late correction, but a return to the original orthodoxy. But frankly is this "mistake" so important ? Very exagerated by his ennemies, and his so called friends more passionated by polemics rather than reading Guénon’s book ; whereas if Guénon corrected this point, it is rather because of his concern to be strictly faithful with truth, and because of his very easy character, accepting a lot of corrections that Pallis constantly did, criticizing every detail of his books instead of merely doing the english translation he was supposed to do.

Concerning time, I also read this kind of remark, but not only from now. Clavelle, little time after Guénon’s death (and in fact already while he was alive) was complaining that things were happening worse, etc. The thing I am sure, is that Guénon is still very understandable from my point of view, and very up to date. But people simply don’t read his books.

Sorry but the afrad way is the direct marial way you were talking about, this is what mentions Abdul Hadi, and what Guénon comments, in the reedition of the article "Pages dedicated to Mercure", in Etudes Traditionnelles, august 1946. Precisely, Adbul Hadi speaks about "marienne initiation". The different types of initiations, including informal ones as this one, are indeed mentionned in Hinduism. This is not in relation with our special time, this has been described a long time ago. The data in Islam about the afrad too, as it is about Al Khidr which is in the Koran. And what Guénon says is that it is very uncommon, contrary to Abdul Hadi... who had written this forty years earlier. Tradition needs adaptation, ok, but I don’t see why it would need a total revolution just because of a little time passed. We don’t know how much, fine, but how much is it compared to non-time ?

So much people who receive an initiation and who think it is already an accomplishment, and who never do inner work. All this gives me the impression that the situation of one or another is very difficult to judge.

Ok, sorry I didn’t know this context in India. I was told that there were a lot of diverse ethnies coexisting together, and that the castes organization was mostly over.

Why must there be a "visible" preparation to the next cycle ? I would rather think that on the contrary it is mostly done without people noticing it. Concerning what Gilis says, no I don’t remember in details, I am afraid it might be some sort of so called prophecies, especially what Guénon warned about. By trying to precise what Guénon remains open, one can look very clever, whereas he just closes doors for people listening to him. It is not for nothing that in metaphysics things are rather considered in a negative way, to avoid being limitated by individual opinions (whatever pretention they can have). But this is unbearable for the majority of people, who find this too "abstract" or boring.


30 sept. 2017 22:07

For water, that’s ok, transposition, but I don’t understand why it couldn’t be done also for fire ? Gilis does not only associate water with the black race, he says that Guénon went from Hinduism to Islam, from fire to water, and that this is an example for all western people that they must convert to Islam. This is all this bizarre scheme that I find unjustified, but that’s just my opinion.

Concerning Buddhism, sorry if I understood bad. But you speak about context, and I thought we were speaking about the context in terms of present : the present state of the organizations, about what Guénon never varied.

Sorry but Guénon spoke about the "gender" things, in Theosophism, 2d edition (1928) he mentions the scandales in the theosophical society, and the theory of Leadbeater, who wanted to realise the androgyne, but in a caricatural way, and was raping young boys so that they would be disgusted by "sins" with women later. Concerning the extraterrestrial theories, ok this is a quite recent phenomenum, but this is some kind of continuity of former fashions. Before people thought they were speaking with dead people, with spiritism, now they think they speak with extraterrestrial through channeling, I don’t see a big difference. Moreover, there were already spirit theories in the XIXth century that the dead would reincarnate on another planetes. So not such a big rupture. But I agree that we are at the end of the time, how could I deny it ? I never dit.

Ok I will look what Sri Goswami says about initiation, but I think I already read it, it is in classic tantric texts (maybe Ahbinava Gupta among others). Anyway we are just sharing our opinions, I respect what you are thinking.

For the 10th Avatara, of course it will correspond to something visible, but concerning the preparation, I think this corresponds to something which is invisible in its major part, and it is a long term work, it is being done presently also. About the arrival of the Avatara, maybe we will see him, but I am rather skeptical because so much people though that this was the time, and it was not. And the present situation can still go even worse during many decades I think. No one can say how things will happen, but personaly I guess we will have to go until the exhausting of ressources, petrole, metals, cultivation, etc., which will happen quite fast, but maybe after our death. Before running out of ressources, I don’t see an end to all this, people are too stupid (and I don’t blame them for this, everything is made for this). Then after, the Avatara could desire to come and regenerate the world, but I don’t see any good thing to do with the present humanity, except a mass extinction, which will happen for sure when no more ressources.

I didn’t accuse you of anything, sorry if I appeared angry or something like this, but I am not, simply I already heard some of the things that you are telling me, and sometimes I see from where it comes. But I have nothing against you nor anyone. Concerning Gilis I don’t even think he is a manipulator, I guess he believes to be what he pretends to be, but I can’t consider him as a sheikh, for me it means a real silsilah, and not those suspect influences as Schuon or the old Moss from Valsan, heavy legacy, which is visible in the madness of people related with Schuon or Valsan in general. But it is only my opinion, once again, and I speak about trends, I don’t say that someone who get interested in Valsan or Gilis will be mad.


1 oct. 2017 18:10

Sorry, maybe we simply have a misunderstanding ? My english is far from being perfect, and even without this it can be difficult to communicate. So sorry by advance if I don’t understand you.

I am totally ok about the new signs you mention, and you could have also mentionned other things like transhumanism, but the fact is, this doesn’t show a change of direction. And you say that the work of Guénon needs an adaptation, because the recent bad signs imply new good possibilities (including concerning the spiritual way, or maybe those 2 points are not related for you ? Maybe that’s here I have not understood). That’s not obvious for me, because during Guénon’s time, some new things came out, and this didn’t come with any new good possibility. On the contrary, everything closing more and more. But a closing has also its good aspect, I agree with that, with the good interpretation.

For me we are already in the empire of the antichrist, not important if this can be personalised by a man or not.

Concerning the exhaustion of ressources, the majority of people doesn’t care about, thinking that our planet is illimited. But all this madness has been propagating on the planete because of what ? Because of the consumption of ressources, accumulated for a very long time, technology has nothing miraculous. And those ressources are very limited, contrary to the common opinion. And there is no way back, once those ressources are gone and the pollution have corrupted all the environment. Guénon says that the change of direction of the modern world will be adapted to the level of consciousness of people, the lower they are, the lower will be the mean. As possible means, he mentions the disappointment about the "moral progress", which doesn’t come with the technological progress. He also mentions fear from the danger of technology, but that is lower, this would be a reaction from the subconscious of man. And the lower the mean would be, the worst it would be. I don’t see people very interested by elevated considerations around me, not even in moral. They don’t seem to fear technology as well, there could be one another Tchernobyl or Fukushima, they don’t take this as a warning, they would simply higher up the pollution norms, so that there are not alarms. They don’t care about the future of their children, they are self centered. I don’t see a good ending to this step, and I even don’t think this would be logical. Then the following cycle could be settled, but this is another question.

As soon as I have enough free time, I will have a look into the book of Sri Goswami.


2 oct. 2017 21:24

I persist to see a misunderstanding, because I already watched the subjects of extraterrestrials or zionism, I don’t get why you think the contrary. I didn’t say that those things do not exist, simply there is no need to "readapt" Guénon’s book in order to treat them, this is simply in the continuity of what he said. More, this was already out while he was still alive. And some counter initiates already had public visibility at his time, he quotes a big number of them.

Concerning the hour of the end of times, anyone has his opinion. The fact is, if it was supposed to be in 1999, and if we are still in the same direction, what does it prove except that the date is rather indicative ? Guénon, not in letters but in public books, says that this change of direction could need many years. And he mentions a mean of changing adapted to people’s mind. Very stupid people, very inferior mean, and I don’t think a fake invasion of ET would give them this desire to elevate themselves. This changing is not linked with some fight between the counter initiates and good forces coming to save us, if something good happens in the outer this will be after this changing of direction. Because you don’t save someone who doesn’t want to be saved. People are too much in love with this shitty technology and comfort. But saying all this I simply agree with the conclusion of the General introduction to the study of hindu doctrines, which is still very up to date in my humble opinion.

Finally, maybe our misunderstanding comes from the fact that we are speaking about different subjects together. When I talk about what I disagree on subjects touching Guénon’s work, it is mainly about the fact that there would be no more necessity of initiation, or the bizarre theories of Gilis, the doors he claims to shut down, because of this weird "esoteric" salafism. Of course I never asked anyone to only read Guénon’s work litterally and without linking it to the present world.

I don’t understand why this goes to the subjects of ufos or zionism, which, moreover, are not so recent signs. From my point of view no big change since the second world war, those two were already outside at its ending, and even the gender subject you talked about is only the logical following of "sexual liberation" which is quite old too (this was explicitely discussed in masonry in the 50’s, and came out late 60’s). General americanization of the world, after american victory. Ok things change, but this is just logical following, the temperature which goes more and more high.

If I told you I won’t share it, I won’t. If you prefer I can erase it.


5 oct. 2017 00:35

Yes, we have never been so close from the end, this is difficult to mistake about this. Concerning the proximity from the end, each of us has his opinion, his impression, I don’t claim mine to be very precise, I just feel that we are not totally at the end. From my point of view, the fight between the antichrist and the avatara could be a symbolical description rather than 2 persons litteraly. Guénon suggests that the antichrist could be a man but also a group of people, and concerning the avatara he explicitely wonders how far the description of his manifestation could be symbolical (in the correspondance to Lovinescu, 14 october 1935).

I don’t know exactly what influence the CERN has exactly, I find it less worrying than the nuclear plants that are all over the world, or various poisons spread all over us, in water, food, the microwaves everywhere, etc. To me it seems rather a costly game for stupid scientists who can’t find any new theory. Maybe it has an influence, but there are so much things that do, including on a psychic level.

Of course, in theory, it is possible to get spontaneous realisation, without any effort. But I don’t consider this in practice, as it is totally independent from will anyway.

Thank you but I read the article of Upton. Concerning the type of magic you describe, why not. But a satanic use of a symbol doesn’t necessary mean magic, this is also a way to produce different reactions, including fear and the impression of all-mighty satanist ruling every aspect of the world, a kind of oppression commonly fostered by conspirationist groups, who claim to fight the devil, but in fact who give him a kind of cult by seeing it everywhere. Anyway, it is sure that there is also another aim which is long term, modeling the general ambiance progressively, which has been done for centuries.

Concerning Gilis it is you who first mentionned him but I am not particularly passionate about him, I have been often in contact with gilissians, and it was always them who tried to gain me to their cause. I know this theory, again I find it very weird, for me he tries to find all the interpretations he can to prove his conclusion, established from the beginning : everyone must convert to Islam. This is not only a distorsion from Guénon’s work, this is constant religious consideration, when Guénon treats esoterism. But with pretention to esoterism, and this is what I find really wicked. At least exoteric muslim have some legitimacy in believing that them and only them own the unique truth, they are simply bound to their exoteric point of view, wich is right in some way, as Islam is a form of the truth. But people who go further must realise soon that truth in itself is impossible to express, and that there are several legitimate forms that can lead to it. This is elementary. The fact that Schuon insulted tradition by repetively showing his shaven old testicles while playing the indian master in love with the Virgin Mary after having given himself the status of moqqadem then of sheikh ridiculizes only him, and it doesn’t cancel the true transcendant unity of the traditional forms. By the way, Guénon doesn’t say that only Islam and Hinduism should rejoin at the end of the cycle, he simply shows the link between them, as they represent the first and the last tradition of our cycle. But he doesn’t say that the other traditions must be destroyed. Keeping only Islam and Hinduism is simply a first step to finally say : as we must not reattach to Hinduism for any pretext, only Islam remains, this is going from fire to water. So I know quite well this claim, which distords Guénon’s work. I have nothing against Gilis, but I simply want to taste Guénon’s work, in all its purity, by trying to not limit it to the narrowmindedness of others (since it is already difficult to push one’s own limits, I find it sad to adopt additional limits from others).

No problem, but this is a question of trust. I told you private stuff, I told you to keep it for you, that is I suppose you are reliable, and of course what you do in real, I don’t handle it. That’s the same for you, so maybe we can consider mutually reliable. Concerning digression, no problem either, what I wanted to say is that maybe we had mixed subjects, believing we disagree where there are simply misunderstanding. But I have no tabou subject particularly, and I am happy to have exchange such as the one we have, indeed it is rare to have the occasion to speak about those subject, and even if we don’t necessary agree this is still interesting.


7 oct. 2017 01:09

I am not especially upset, if there is passion I see it is rather from your side. I don’t find you respectful, even if you assure the contrary and finish your message with "kind regards" (this gives just to the tone something condescendent). I am not surprised that you have been sensitive to the flattery of Gilis concerning the superior black race theory. The thing is, personaly I have no need to convince you about anything, I was just trying to have an simple human exchange with you. If this is not possible I am not going to try to shout louder than you, not at all in this kind of behaviour. And if this confirms your feeling of being the winner in a fight of which I never took part, fine, enjoy.


9 oct. 2017 01:29

Please don’t reverse the situation, it is you who contacted me, and me who answered you. And why did you really contact me ? I don’t understand, moreover when you question my reliability without any reason, which makes me question yours. Is the aim to spy, or to teach me my lessons ? I am ready to listen a lot, but what I know by experience is that wise people are always very simple, contrary to gilissians. Because it is not especially about the black race (by the way "no sense", I searched for those words, I didn’t find it in my talk about Gilis), it is about swollen egos. For example I knew some moroccan gilissians, they were very satisfied about the supremacist theories of Gilis concerning Islam, but only because it helps them to feel elevated as muslim, and to add to the ridicule they used to claim that moroccans are the elite of Islam. Lots of fart self smelling here, caricature of esoterism, people in very serious postures, always telling the same bullshit, taking Guénon in hostage, as you do. So the schuonian branch is very good just because Guénon would have called Valsan a sheikh ? I never read this, but lets admit it. As we know that Schuon lied to Guénon about his moqaddem status, since Aymard showed the false ijaza, what is the point of using the deception of Guénon ? So disgusting. Another lie is that Schuon would have stopped to be Valsan’s sheikh, whereas he never broke contact, always continued to call him his venerated sheikh, and even discussed with him about how to share the disciples. Just 2 lies among so many.

It is all about this : you are angry against me just because I have no esteem for some "masters". Everything else I say is just less categorical than your positions, and every time you curiously try to turn it into a categoric position opposed to yours. But this will not change my mind concerning those "masters", because I know too well the harm they did and the wicked madness of too much people involved in this, who find it so pleasant to be right, much more easy and confortable than sincere interest to the truth.


10 oct. 2017 19:02

Maybe rather a difference of logic than language. "I said that what he said makes no sense" : I was refering to the past action you mentionned in this sentence rather than the sentence itself, whatever.

As Guénon recognized Schuon as a skeikh (as someone previously designated moqqadem, who had then taken his independance), before seeing directly the wicked man he was in reality, without even knowing he was not even moqqadem, I don’t see the consequences of claiming hypothetically that Guénon recognized Valsan as a sheikh, which is exactly the same case. Except for questions of branch and regularity of initiation given to the disciples, which is generally the point when this declaration is made, and which is what mattered from Guénon’s point of view, who didn’t especially want to flatter Schuon but simply recognized his validity to provide regular initiation as head of an independent branch, because he simply cared about qualified western people to be able to access this.

Why in the world would I accuse Sri Goswami of taking Guénon hostage ? I didn’t talk about him as I don’t know him at all.

I don’t insist particularly on my own person, I agree it doesn’t matter, if I suppose spying, it is simply because of real past facts rather than megalomania. But anyway, I am not the first who supposed the other of betrayal.

Yes we are done, this is my last and it’s fine if you don’t answer.

Good luck in your search.


Conclusion

Le calomniateur croit nuire à sa cible, mais celui qu’il salit intérieurement, c’est lui-même, et ceux qui relaient ses médisances. Il faut prendre garde aux personnes qui veulent entraîner les autres, qui lancent des rumeurs, qui font miroiter des preuves qu’elles ne présentent pas, qui s’attaquent à la vie privée. Il est possible qu’elles ne veuillent pas du tout le bien de leur auditoire, mais tout simplement qu’elles désirent que d’autres chutent après elles, pour se sentir moins seules, engluées qu’elles sont dans le bourbier.

11 commentaires:

  1. Ce commentaire a été supprimé par son auteur.

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  2. Merci pour votre témoignage. Cet individu a crée un blog pour étaler ses calomnies sans apporter aucune preuve concrète. Au moins, vous mettez les points sur les i.

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  3. Réponses
    1. Bruno Hapel, visiblement obsédé par les ragots, prétend maintenant utiliser les commentaires de la présente page pour justifier ses attaques contre ma vie privée.

      A la place du présent commentaire, il y avait une menace de "Man" déguisée en demande de trêve, et une réponse de ma part, où je citais son message et je lui répondais juste "Comment je peux savoir que ce sont vos commentaires ? Google analytics ne fournit pas l'adresse IP."

      J'avais cité son long message, notamment pour en garder trace, mais à aucun moment je n'ai confirmé ses allégations. Et c'est vrai également pour toutes les autres choses d'ordre privé qu'il a "révélées" ici ou ailleurs, je n'ai pas à confirmer ou infirmer quoi que ce soit. Pour que même les esprits tordus ne puissent pas prétendre avoir mal compris, je retire les deux commentaires.

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  4. 1) Confirmez-vous que c'est bien votre commentaire ?

    Anonyme, 3 novembre 2017 à 19:38 :
    "Tu me censures encore? Le problème avec vous, sept ans plus tard, c'est ceci: vous ignorez les vérités et vous vous concentrez sur les «sons». Vous pensez toujours que les «tons» indiquent l'intention et que la vérité est basée sur l'intention. Si quelqu'un vous disait: le ciel est bleu mais d'un ton coléreux, vous le nieriez sur la seule base du ton. Pour cette raison, vous n'êtes pas vraiment intéressé par la vérité. C'est une maladie pour laquelle vous avez besoin d'aide.

    Je peux aussi commencer un blog, puisque vous me censurez quand tout ce que je dis est la vérité. J'ai aussi des courriels entre nous qui durent environ cinq ans et que je vais rendre publics. Dans ces courriels, vous révélez votre propre «ton». Puisque vous accordez beaucoup de poids au «ton», voyons comment le «public guénonien» vous recevra en fonction de cela."
    https://oeuvre-de-rene-guenon.blogspot.com/2017/07/rene-guenon-articles-et-comptes-rendus.html?showComment=1509734285306#c6945008328234411346



    2) Confirmez-vous que c'est bien votre commentaire ?

    Anonyme, 20 août 2018 à 09:42
    "L'islam dominera le monde. Guenon lui-même le savait. Pourquoi s'embêter avec l'hindouisme? L'islam est la tradition choisie pour mener à l'âge d'or. L'Islam détruira tout le reste. Le Mahdi viendra faire cela. Aucune autre tradition ne mentionne une figure comme le Mahdi. Le Mahdi est un descendant du Prophète (SAW) et viendra mener l'Islam à la victoire. Il n'y a pas de symbolisme, c'est un fait littéral. Si vous résistez à cela, alors vous serez tué par le pouvoir du Mahdi. Le pouvoir du Mahdi est le pouvoir de l'épée."
    https://oeuvre-de-rene-guenon.blogspot.com/2018/04/versions-avec-caracteres-originaux.html?showComment=1534750939732#c3614283085256376526



    3) Confirmez-vous que c'est bien votre commentaire ?

    Anonyme, 17 décembre 2018 à 11:33
    "Le règne de la quantité et les signes des temps comme un livre donnent un air différent à toutes les ordures qui viennent d’être écrites ici. C'est drôle de ne jamais citer ce livre, car il remettrait complètement en question votre vision d'ensemble. C'était le dernier livre que Guenon a publié sur l'état de notre monde d'un point de vue cyclique. Parler de l'attitude des autres comme si vous n'en aviez pas vous-même!

    Votre attitude est celle de nier les changements que Guenon lui-même a signalés dans le livre que je viens de citer. Comme nous l’avons dit avec force, nous sommes visiblement en train de nous dissoudre avant la fin de ce cycle. Cela a de nombreuses ramifications dans divers domaines. Nous devrions peut-être aussi publier un article sur notre blog pour examiner les perspectives de ce livre.

    N'hésitez pas à censurer le commentaire en passant!"
    https://oeuvre-de-rene-guenon.blogspot.com/2018/04/versions-avec-caracteres-originaux.html?showComment=1534750939732#c3614283085256376526



    4) Confirmez-vous que c'est bien votre commentaire ?

    Anonyme, 27 février 2019 à 16:16 :
    "Les questions légitimes sont censurées et les éloges et commérages banaux sont publiés. Cela en dit long sur ta mentalité, Tagada. Vous devez encore expliquer d'où provient cette information. Nous avons même vu un prétendu roman publié en ligne par votre meilleur ami, Bruno Hapel, avant qu'il ne supprime son blog précédent comme une petite fille après avoir reçu des critiques légitimes.

    Pour ajouter à la liste de vos questions: où obtenez-vous toutes ces informations secrètes? Ces lettres, romans et manuscrits inédits?

    Juste pour que vous sachiez, j'ai presque fini d'écrire mon premier exposé sur vous et je vais le publier pendant le week-end. J'espère que vos lecteurs l'attendent avec impatience!

    Cordialement."
    https://oeuvre-de-rene-guenon.blogspot.com/2019/02/la-fonction-de-frithjof-schuon-3.html?showComment=1551280565476#c7024139689218586291

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    Réponses
    1. Ce commentaire a été supprimé par son auteur.

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    2. Je veux bien prendre en compte votre demande, mais j'attends de vous une demande d'homme à homme, faite avec votre adresse email d'origine. Ce que vous auriez dû faire dès le début.

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  5. Bonjour,

    vous pouvez bien supprimer; il y a des témoins, il serait préférable de faire
    preuve d'un peu plus d'enthousiasme concernant la forme; les inepties et raccourcies
    sur ce que pensait "Guénon", les interprétations douteuses que vous faites en lieu
    et place de celui qui sera détenteur de la fonction de Mahdi Muntadhar ou "Sceaux du Khalifat";
    et l'hindouisme dont vous ne connaissez rien; les sorties sur des informations privées concernant
    l'animateur ou les animateurs de ce blog; d'ailleurs jusqu'ici des accusations graves non étayées
    dont les différents emails publiés n'accréditent nullement, non toujours aucune justification;
    les menaces répétitives inaceptables.

    Tant l'on peut être en désaccord sur des positions doctrinales; 1- ceci s'argumente,
    2- l'on ne se comporte pas comme vous l'avez fait en prétendant détenir quelques
    connaissances; voyez-vous, il existe ce que l'on appelle les formes; les conformités
    qui sont tout autant d'outils équilibrants.

    Cordialement.

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  6. Bonjour,

    Je ne supprimerai rien (je peux même publier d'autres messages en réserve), tant que "Man" ne m'aura pas clairement exprimé sa demande, avec le compte sous lequel il s'est présenté à moi en 2017. Je n'écoute pas les lâches menaces anonymes, j'écoute les vrais hommes.

    Cordialement.

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  7. Les 2 jours sont écoulés depuis longtemps. Le troll ferait mieux de supprimer complètement son blog.

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  8. Bonjour, merci, bien reçu. Si vous le souhaitez, vous pouvez m'écrire à l'adresse email de contact du blog. Cordialement.

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